Discussion

[Penny Dreadful]

This thread is for out-of-character discussion about the game. Here we can discuss issues related specifically to this game and not clutter up the general chat thread. Discussion about classes, spells, mechanics, etc, as well as about the story or a change in the rules that someone would like to propose would go here.

I'll start it off by introducing a cool way of doing combat that I came across while reading. I've never seen anything like this done in a game I've played in, but I think it could be really cool. It involves the GM keeping things like the the DC for rolls or player's current hit points hidden from the players. So that would turn combat into a more cinematic experience, for lack of a better word, instead of being an uninteresting numbers game. So instead of this:

DM: Ok, you rolled 18+3 that's 21. The thug has AC 18, so you hit. Roll for damage.
Player rolls.
DM: Cool, you rolled 8 and your strength bonus to damage is 4, so that's 12 damage. The thug has 8 hp so he dies.

You could have this:

DM: The thug tries to make a quick swipe at you but misses. Before he can bring his blade up to defend himself, you bring your sword down on him in a powerful blow that cuts right through the cheap leather armour he is wearing. Roll for damage.
Player rolls.
DM: Your sword tears through the thugs collarbone and doesn't stop until it gets stuck somewhere around his midriff, nearly cleaving him in two. The thug lets out a low gurgle and collapses in the muddy street, the rain making the small streams flowing along the wheel ruts run crimson.

Not knowing your own numerical hit points, or those of the monsters you're fighting, makes combat seem more dangerous and cinematic. If you have 10/30 hp left and you know that goblin does 1d4+1 damage, you can figure out very easily that at worst you could survive two more hits, maybe even three or four if the goblin rolls badly. But if all you know is that you're pretty badly hurt, and you don't think you could take much more of this, it makes you think a bit more about what to do next. Plus it allows the GM to streamline combat if need be; so if you're fighting on a balcony, instead of trading dice rolls with the assassin I could have you sending him screaming over the edge if it happens to be dramatically convenient, but you as a player wouldn't necessarily know that I fudged a roll, so the mood isn't ruined by rolling dice and you noticing that I cheated.

I'm strongly tempted to try this because it sounds like it could be a lot of fun and really add something to the game, but I wanted to get some opinions about it first, so let me know what you think.

[Jedi_Master_007]

I like it, I really do. I think it adds an element of realism to the game that would otherwise be missing. That's awesome to me.

Then I got to thinking about it a little more, and some things popped up. It's good for cinematic, posting, but on the other hand, cinematic posting is something we should all be doing anyway, regardless of what happens with numbers, right? A good player will be able to put "I can't take much more of this..." into their post.

What worries me, is that players will then play cowardly characters who are afraid to do anything because they have no idea where their abilities are on the scale.

For example, getting smacked with an axe by a Hobgoblin isn't going to feel pleasant no matter how much health you have. How do you determine what hurts and what's just a scratch? You'd still end up with a player (like me) going "So okay, in comparison to the stab I just took from the longsword 5 minutes ago, how bad does the axe wound feel?" That would slow the game down just as much, wouldn't it?

Nobody wants to play "The adventures of Average Joe the Warrior who is scared to rush in against 5 goblins with daggers" when he should be "I'm Ragnor the badass who isn't even going to bat an eyelash at 5 goblins with daggers because on their best day I can still punt them around like they're chickens in a game of Fable."

I'm not sure, I like it, but I want to see it in use before I'd be willing to commit to it, because part of the reason we're all going to play is because of the dice and numbers involved. This is a DnD game, not a bunch of Freeform creative writing posts that belong in the creative writing thread, yanno?

[Jedi_Master_007]

Also, on a complete sidenote, Shadowpoofy wants to be a Paladin. A Bard. Or a Rogue. But she doesn't want to be a Rogue if somebody else is.

Bards are icky IMO, and Paladins... while amusing, some of us are Evil. How would that work again? I wasn't sure what to tell her.

[Penny Dreadful]

That's the problem I saw with it too, which is why I wanted to throw it out there and see what people think. The GM would still roll for damage and maintain a numerical hp total for each player, the player just doesn't get to see it. I'm not fussed if people decide they'd rather just do it normally though.

About the spider thing again, if it's not a mount then yes you could have it attack and stuff.

As for the paladin, I am much more fond of them in Ravenloft than in vanilla dnd, because dedicating yourself to righteousness means a lot more here. In dnd it's not really anything special because everyone is 'good', the paladin just goes that extra mile. If she has her heart set on a paladin, I'd leave it up to you guys to coordinate amongst yourselves how you'll handle the difference in alignments. For a good character it would likely be a matter of allying herself with the lesser of the two evils, because chances are that the PC's are still going to be a lot less evil than what they're fighting. For evil characters, they probably wouldn't care at all, and might even prefer the paladin over another evil character in their party because the paladin at least won't screw them over. You don't have to be buddies, you don't even have to like each other (and a bit of tension and conflict in the party isn't necessarily a bad thing), but you should at least be able to cooperate most of the time.

Bards, I will agree, are a bit of an oddball. I don't know much about them in 3.5, but again if she wants to play one she would be more than welcome. I'd work in situations where she could use her Bard skills and so on. Purple is considering a Rogue, so maybe they can talk to each other and see what works best for them.

[Beta]

Bards can be quite fun, I've only ever played one before when I wasn't sure what class to pick in a game. Loads of skill points+spells+3/4 attack progression opens up a massive range of stuff to do.

I know I told you I'd probably be playing a rogue before, Jedi, but I think I'll be going for a sorcerer now. I'll be using the variant witch spell list in the DMG though, so I'll be able to do a bit of healing, some enchantment and a bit of nature magic as well. Versatility is fun

[Jedi_Master_007]

Coolness. That opens up the Rogue for Shadowpoofy if she wants it. And if you've got some nature magic and the like, that helps too, since Ac1d wants to be a Druid and I want to be a Ranger.

[purplegeekness]

Actually, I forgot I'll be playing a rogue in the other DnD game we have here and don't want to go rogue twice over. That will make it boring!.

Which means I need to go think some more.

[Jedi_Master_007]

That other game is a long, long way off. You could play one here, and something else there.

[Shadowpoofy]

In response to Penny’s initial post…I have played in table top games where the DM describes the scene cinematically. I prefer it. I think it also gives the players more to work with and keeps the game from just being a bunch of numbers and statistics. I have seen it done very well. The most recent version of DnD has a mechanic where you are told when the monster you are fighting is “bloodied” and then you know that it is at half or less of its hit points. Conversely, players announce to their party that they are “bloodied” when they reach half or less of their hit points and that is how the party knows who needs healing, help, etc. Basically, it is a representation of how bad off you are by providing more of a visual like you would have in real life, instead of assigning numbers to it which makes no sense in a real world setting. So while the players know their own hit point numbers and how much damage they take, the other players don’t know each other’s stats and only the DM knows the monster’s. I think that this system is a good balance between keeping it “realistic” and allowing the player to know enough to make good calls about their own character’s actions.

[Jedi_Master_007]

That's a good idea, Lisa. That may work here too. But it still doesn't answer the questions of "how bad does the axe wound feel in comparison to the sword stab I just took two turns ago?" And it isn't any fun to have somebody rolling for me when the reason I'm playing DnD instead of writing a creative writing post is that I get to roll dice.

[Jedi_Master_007]

Oh, and what are you thinking of playing? The Paladin or the Rogue?

[Shadowpoofy]

Yes, it does answer that question because in my example the DM will be telling you how much you were hit for and you will be keeping track of how many hit points you have left. The rest of the party however will not know how much you have been hit for and will not know the number of hit points you have. If you are hit and it knocks you down to half health or less you would then announce to the party that you were "bloodied". They never know the exact amount of hit points you have or that you have been hit for, but you do. It makes sense because if I was really fighting someone I would have a pretty good idea of how badly I was hurt, but other people looking at me would only have a general idea by observing how much blood was on me, how hard I was breathing, if I was limping, etc.

You would be rolling your own dice and you could just compare the numbers on the hits you recieved to know how bad they were because in the system I described the DM would tell you just not everyone else.

Additionally, in this system only the DM knows how many hit points the monster has but when it gets to half or less hit points the DM would announce that it was bloodied representing our ability to see that maybe it was moving slower and taking more effort to swing or that it was missing a limb and bleeding profusely. You would know how much you hit it for, you just wouldn’t know how much your party members hit it for or how many hit points were left exactly. This represents your ability to know how well you used your weapon, but an inability to know anything but generally how your party is doing because normally combats are only a mater of seconds and you can’t do your stuff and watch everyone else too.

And I am considering playing a paladin.

[purplegeekness]

well, it might be better to have a few other categorisations. Like hurt, seriously hurt and near death as well. That way it's not I'm at 50% run for the healer!

[Jedi_Master_007]

Right. That's an even better idea.

[Jedi_Master_007]

People got their characters squared away? Penny, I'm still waiting on knowing how much gold we start with so I can get my inventory, and then I am done.

[Beta]

I need to decide on a name and, as you mentioned, gear, but I'm pretty much done.

The question of names brings me on to a question for you Penny. What cultural backgrounds should we be considering when we pick one? From a brief glance over the setting info, I'm guessing a mixture of German and Slavic?

[Penny Dreadful]

I'm back, and sort of pissed off at some stuff that happened while I was away, so I don't have time to look up the table right now. But you can assume at least 2700 gold, which is the starting amount for level 3 characters if I remember correctly, perhaps a bit more, and anything up to masterwork quality.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean as far as cultural backgrounds. The overall 'feel' of the core realms of Ravenloft is certainly European(ranging from the slightly French feel of Dementlieu to the more slavic domains like Borca and Barovia) and if you want a name that sort of fits this mold that's fine. Any fantasy-esque name would do though, since, cultural inspirations notwithstanding, this is a (dark) fantasy world.

For specific backgrounds for a character, humans and calibans, and to an extent half-elves and half-vistani are fairly straightforward. If anyone is wanting to play a more exotic race, let me know and we'll figure out where your character is from.

[Penny Dreadful]

Also, is everyone familiar with things like Powers Checks, Fear/Horror/Madness saves, Dread Companions, and so on? If not I can summarise them.

[Jedi_Master_007]

I am mostly familiar with them, but I am not sure when you might call for the Powers/Fear/Horror/Madness checks.

Also, I talked to Shadowpoofy last night. She told me to tell you that she'll be on today, and that she's almost completed with the character. I think she has to finish up on her inventory.

You said masterwork items. Does that include mighty bows? What about Cloaks of Resistance +1, or other items that similar. It's no biggy, but if I have gp left over, I want a safe way to store it. Make sense?

[Penny Dreadful]

Fear is something you'd roll if your character is afraid for his life. Say you're severely outnumbered or facing an enemy that is obviously much more powerful than yourself. Fear is a fairly relative save too. If your character doesn't know the thing he's facing is actually a pit fiend in disguise, you obviously wouldn't be rolling a Fear save.

Horror is when a character is confronted with something that is just wrong. For example seeing someone get turned into a Broken One would call for a Horror save.

Madness is, in my opinion, the hardest one to define, and also the hardest one to use effectively in a game. Madness comes in to play when a character is confronted with something she just can't cope with, or that makes her question reality. A character seeing a doppelganger that is impersonating herself kill her family might call for a madness save.

The Player's Handbook provides a good description of Fear/Horror/Madness saves on pages 77, 79, and 83, respectively. I don't think I'll be making a whole lot of use of Madness saves though, because the effects it can have are so devastating. Unless it makes sense within the context of the story or advances the plot in some meaningful way, I don't like the idea of a character being reduced to a gibbering wreck for weeks on end, or to become suicidal and have to try and off herself every other day or so. If a character does end up suffering from a failed Madness save, chances are we'll decide on what the effects should be and how long they last, instead of rolling dice.

I can't seem to find the descriptions of all the different kinds of 'qualifiers' for gear right now (masterwork, mighty, keen, etc), but if I recall correctly a mighty bow gives +1 to damage and cloak of resistance gives +1 to all saves. Those two are fine, and if I ever find the stupid loot descriptions again I could tell you what else would be ok too.

[Shadowpoofy]

I sent my character to Penny in a PM tonight for her to review. If anything is wrong, I blame my husband because he helped me make it and I am dumb when it comes to DnD character creation. And I will also be using him to tell me what I need to roll until I do it enough times to remember it. lol

[Jedi_Master_007]

I have a question about the logistics of the game. If we're level 3, and most individuals never get to level 1, does the average folk consider us pretty badass? Or are we just a bunch of pushovers? Will we be getting the chances to go back to our homes and stuff to restock, or resupply?

[Penny Dreadful]

'Normal' people realise that you're a cut above them and that you do things that they couldn't or wouldn't. But they won't look up to you as heroes unless you do something to earn that sort of treatment. At the same time you can't run roughshod over them without any consequences.

You can return to your home to rest and resupply pretty much when ever you like and have the means to travel there.

[Jedi_Master_007]

Ok. The reason I ask, is because I have a lot of equipment. I obviously can't carry it all, but based on whatever mission I am doing, something else may be useful. Yanno?

And I'm not trying to run roughshod over the townsfolk, but it is nice when you don't have to fight every drunk in a bar because they don't recognize badassery.

[Beta]

Cool. I'm gonna have a little hut just outside of town, with a thatched roof and a wonky, always-smoking chimney.

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